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 Carolina Basement League Trade Number 2

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Red Monster
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PostSubject: Carolina Basement League Trade Number 2   Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:48 pm

Red Monster gives

Oliver Perez Lastings Milledge F.Cordero



Boy Wonders gives


Chris Young Justin Upton K-Rod


We already have 2 votes against the trade which I cant figure out why.........I need more power and Wonder Boy needs better pitching........Im also taking a chance with K-Rod considering his injury so if that factors in it should be a non-factor anyway.........OK now Im just babbling.........Any thoughts from the Big Boyz????
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DforDynasty
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PostSubject: Re: Carolina Basement League Trade Number 2   Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:56 pm

well chris young>oliver perez
Upton>Milledge
K-Rod>Cordero
I can understand the vetoes
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PostSubject: Re: Carolina Basement League Trade Number 2   Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:26 pm

The trade is lopsided in favor of Red Monster, BUT you need to remind your league that the veto is only to be used if cheating is suspected! In this case, I trust that Boy Wonders only has the best intentions for his team. He is an active member on the Forum here and seems to be very competitve.

You do not vote against a trade because it helps one team more than the other. Unless a manager feels like there is reason to beleive that two managers are working together to make one team better, you should never veto a trade. Everyone has an equal opportunity to rip eachother off, the manager that makes it happen should not be punished for it. When I finally get around to sending the Elite Constitution out, it will include a lengthy section on trade voting so everyone is aware of what is expected.
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PostSubject: Re: Carolina Basement League Trade Number 2   Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:02 pm

NO VETO that is ridic....

#1 Chris Young is absolute garbage....take that to the bank....the guy can not stay healthy and is never will....O. Perez is not a stud but he has more upside than Young....

#2 Upton is the s*^% but Milledege was a highly touted prospect and will approach 20/20 this season...I love Upton and he will continue to perform, but he is on pace for 40 HR...does anyon think he can keep up this pace...seriously???....

#3 K-Rod and Cordero are a waah, b/c of K-Rod injury problems right now and the fact that he hasnt looked himself goign back to last season......

I would rather have the Upton side but to say this trade is vetoable is a joke.....refer to the article below for proper use of the veto and ask the managers in your league to explain their vetos.....


How And When To Use the Veto

By Blitz-d from TSN boards


This is the hottest most widely disputed topic in D&T fantasy sports. Every manager seems to have a different view on what the veto is for and how to use it. No one wants to work hard on a trade only to have it vetoed for selfish reasons by the league. And no one wants to see 2 owners creating a "super team" so they can split the prize money. Trading must be allow to happen fairly in a DRAFT AND TRADE league but all too often I read of leagues where every trade is shot down or worse, where 2 people are cheating.

I will give you my take on this controversial subject. Lets start with TSN's own guidelines of "when to veto a trade?" and TSN's definition of "collusion". (both are cut and pasted from TSN game faqs)

"When should I veto a pending trade?"

"The power to veto a pending trade is given to protect managers against collusion, which is a form of cheating where both managers knowingly attempt to benefit one manager at the expense of the rest of the league. Refusing a trade on the grounds that you perceive it to unfairly benefit one manager is not, under normal circumstances, a legitimate reason to veto a trade. The ability to trade players is a central part of this game."

Here is TSN definition of collusion.....

"A form of cheating where two or more managers agree to work together to unfairly improve one manager's place in the standings. A frequently occurring example of collusion is unfair trades, although there are many other ways for two or more managers to cheat the system. We do not tolerate collusion and any managers found to be involved in it may lose access to their teams or lose their registration with our site. Managers suspecting collusion should notify Member Services immediately. One mechanism we employ to curtail collusion is league voting of trades. Another is a minimum on the number of players a manager must have on his team at any time."

Based on what TSN says in their rules and game faqs, vetoes should only be used in cases of collusion or cheating. They clearly say that unfair trades, under normal circumstances, should NOT be vetoed. Now I always played in leagues that are made up of mostly experienced players that were created through the message boards here at TSN, so I never really had to deal with blatant cheating. So whenever this debate would come up, I would cite TSNs own words.........."veto only in cases of collusion". A bad trade isnt always worthy of a veto. I mean, vetoes are not there to stop people from making mistakes.........are they?

During one recent debate on the message boards though, I thought... "how do you know if a bad trade is collusion or not?"

And how do you know? No one comes out and says they are trying to cheat. If I were to cheat (and I never would) I would do it more subtlety than some of the lop-sided trades that get posted on the message boards. I mean in order to successfully cheat the trade must pass through the voting process.

Another term used in this agrument is "veto to maintain the integrity of the league". Sounds great. We all want to play in a league that maintains its integrity. We dont want to see a trade that is going to drastically change the balance of power with in our leagues. But for some reason the term "integrity of the league" always sounds like the person is really saying... "the integrity of my place within this league". I mean are you vetoing that bad deal for the LEAGUES benefit or are you protecting your chances to win?

Look, this game is draft and TRADE. So we must be able to trade. If I am working a trade and I get an owner to do a deal that favors me, shouldnt I reap the benefits of my work? Arent I just playing the TRADE part of this game better than the rest of my league? Is it the leagues job to "protect" the other manager from his own stupidity? What if the other owner thinks the deal is good for him? Then what? He obviously doesnt feel he needs "protection" from his own actions............do you still veto?

Unfortunatly I dont have all of the answers. But I have change my stance of using the veto. I cannot honestly say that I know if 2 managers are trying to cheat or if one manager is foolishly, but innocently, trading his team away. No one is going to come out and admit to cheating so we have to come up with a fair way to evalute trades, without hindering other managers ability to improve their teams or to compromise the leagues integrity. I do have some thoughts on this.

First thing you should do if a bad trade winds up in your in-box is to privately ask the manager on the losing side of the trade why he feels this is helping is team. Do it privately so as not to embarrass him and get him on the defensive. We also dont want the manager who is winning the trade to get upset over our questioning the trade. Now most leagues have a 2 day voting period before the trade goes through. If you question the owner but you dont hear from him in a day, then vote with your heart. If that manager does respond but comes up with a lame excuse, again, vote with your heart. But he may just have a logical.......although flawed.......reason to do the trade. If the explanation is plausible........you should vote for the trade, regardless if you like the trade or not.

What it really boils down to is PERSONAL INTEGRITY. We can only hope that we are in leagues where every manager has some level of that but we all know that isnt the case. So I have set my own personal integrity rules and guidelines for using my veto.

I will not veto a trade to block a manager from improving his team.
I will not impose my rankings on other owners.
I will not veto based on my position in the standings or based on the other managers position in the standings.
I will not veto because I wanted one of the players involved.
I will not veto out of revenge because a manager declines my trade offers.
I will not veto out of revenge because I have received vetoes in the past from these managers on my own trades.
I will not veto if one manager changes his mind about the deal after its been accepted.
I will not be influenced by others in my league to vote for or against any deals.
I will not try to influence how others use their votes.
I will look at the standings and the needs of both teams involved when judging a trade.
I will ask the manager why he is making this trade if I deem that trade unfair before I consider the veto.
I will vote based on the players involved in the deal as well as the players being dropped (if its a 2 for 1 type of trade).
I will veto if I suspect collusion because if I suspect collusion then the trade must be very one sided.
If I am unsure how I feel about the trade, I will not vote at all.

Now that isnt fool proof, I know. I do think if everyone tried to follow those guidelines there will be a lot less fighting with in our leagues. You should be very carefully not to piss of potential trading partners with accusations or grandstanding.

But let me just say again that the veto option isnt there to help you win your league. It should never be used selfishly. If one manager pulls off a great trade, a trade that just might help win him the league, then tip your hat to him. He just plays the game better than you do.
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bschack@fuse.net
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PostSubject: Re: Carolina Basement League Trade Number 2   Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:51 pm

Ok, Here's my side of this.

First of all, it's important to realize that this is Chris Young the OF, NOT Chris Young the SP. I needed to upgrade my pitching. I also have Curtis Granderson due to come off the DL soon.

I realize J. Upton is hot right now -- and that he is the real deal. I also expect some growing pains this year from him. So I am getting a quality Starting Pitcher on a good team (which should translate to some Wins) and a Closer that I am more comfortable with -- Those of you saying KRod > Cordero fail to take into account KRods injury (which Red Monster is aware of). That scares me. Everyone who has seen him pitch this year has said he's not himself. I would rather have Cordero who is healthy at the moment and pitching well.

So, the way I see it.
1) I upgrade my pitching
2) I upgrade (or at least sidegrade) my Closer
3) I take a loss on Upton for Milledge, but I have Granderson due to come off the DL.

I offered the trade. Those of you feeling that I am getting the raw end of the deal and vetoing this should please take this into account.

Thanks,
The Boy Wonders.
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PostSubject: Re: Carolina Basement League Trade Number 2   Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:18 pm

Thanks for telling your side. We all value players differently but the important thing here is that this is NOT a case in which a manager should vote against the trade. The veto is not in place to block managers from improving/hurting their teams. It's only purpose is to prevent cheating or dumping which is obviously not the case here. Those who voted no should be reminded of the this.
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Red Monster
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PostSubject: Re: Carolina Basement League Trade Number 2   Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:30 pm

Thanks for all the input guys......I think its its a fair deal for both sides and as Boy Wonders said he offered the trade and I just excepted.......The notion that Im getting the better half of the deal is just plain stupid because we really dont know if Upton or Young will hit 40 Bombs combined and add to the fact that K-Rods ERA is over 5.00 this year so Im taking a chance on all 3 of these guys......Like my uncle Fritz used to say "If you dont roll the dice your aunt Lucy dont cook".
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Okinawa Corals
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PostSubject: Re: Carolina Basement League Trade Number 2   Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:08 am

ok, found it Smile

the manifesto is not even posted or has not been ofifcially deployed yet so I vetoed the trade based on value as 2 or 3 other ppl that posted above thought so as well being loopsided towards Monster.

now, based on collusion or cheating of course this will pass and so will all the other 1000 trades...in fact I would be interested to know when the 1st trade is vetoed under this criteria as it really is not a criteria to me and I'm talking from my 8 year experience, managing 120+ teams as I consider a lot of factors into vetoes and I hardly veto anything. And trust me whatever you say will not cnnage my POV overnight on this subject.

but again this is your system, your league, your forums so i will just abide by your rules.

I will cross my fingers and hope someone in my league is dumb and I can trade Jonathan Sanchez for Arod because I have excess pitching and I need a 3B...lmao

good luck all

Okinawa
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J. Thornton
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PostSubject: Re: Carolina Basement League Trade Number 2   Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:37 am

Thanks for voicing your opinion- I know you've said you're opinion won't change on the subject overnight but I'd like to give it a shot.

In a game that is based on managing players as their values rise and fall, how can you say that it is unfair for a manager to get the best deal he can find when trading? If you handicap a managers ability to trade and improve his/her team, how can the best really rise to the top? It's like riding a bike with training wheels. It's like telling a poker play he can't limp into a hand with 7,2 and bluff his opponent off his Pocket Jacks.

The best deal isn't always the obvious deal and there should be no universal judgement for what is "fair" and what is not. It is no different in major league baseball. If the Giants want to trade Joe Nathan, Francisco Liriano, and Boof Bonser to Twins for A.J. Pierzynski they can, and they did. And you're right, under the collusion criteria, there are rarely ever vetoed trades. If a trade is worthy of veto, both managers will be permanently removed from competition.


Personally, I'm a not a big trader myself. I am constantly frustrated by managers in my leagues who make foolish trades, strengthing my opponents. BUT, it's part of the game...and I have the same opportunity to rip people off.

Elite Fantasy Baseball was established to develop the most competitive fantasy leagues in the world. The only way to do that is to make it a no holds barred, no frills competition. I have no doubt that this is the only format on the internet where the best will consistently rise to the top.
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bschack@fuse.net
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PostSubject: Re: Carolina Basement League Trade Number 2   Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:19 am

Well, I know Okinawa feels that it was an extremely lopsided trade in Red Monster's favor. Obviously, I disagree. As with all things Fantasy Baseball related, the final decision will have to be made at the end of the year. A lot of things can happen between now and September.

For me, the only sad thing about this was the fact that only 4 teams out of 10 participated in the voting. I disagree with Okinawa's veto -- but I'm glad he's active and paying attention. I wish I could say that about the rest of the league.

And for those of you wondering why I would trade KRod for Cordero:

KRod teeters on the edge...Angel closer Francisco Rodriguez (LAA, RHP) managed a narrow escape this past Saturday when Torii Hunter (OF, LAA) went to the CF wall to take a possible HR away from Richie Sexson (1B, SEA) for the final out with a runner on and the game on the line. Rodriguez hasn’t been right since 2007 2H, thanks to chronic pain in his left (landing) ankle. And mechanical adjustments intended to lessen the pain aren’t helping his performance.

Year IP ERA xERA Ctl Dom Cmd hr/9
====== == ==== ==== === ==== === ====
2005 67 2.68 2.92 4.3 12.2 2.8 0.9
2006 73 1.73 3.07 3.5 12.1 3.5 0.7
2007 67 2.81 3.22 4.5 12.0 2.8 0.4

2007H1 33 2.45 2.36 3.8 13.4 3.5 0.5
2007H2 34 3.15 4.09 5.2 10.8 2.1 0.3

2008 8 5.39 5.40 7.6 7.6 1.0 0.0

It was barely three weeks ago that Rodriguez first admitted that he’d pitched with ankle pain for most of the 2007 2H. Subsequently, a mild sprain of his right ankle put him on the shelf for several games after blowing a save to CLE, but even after being cleared to pitch, Rodriguez’ velocity – now only 88-91 MPH on some nights – continues to fluctuate along with his command. His delivery is more refined – as occasionally is the bite of his breaking ball - and Angel Mgr Mike Scioscia stated last week that Rodriguez was feeling his way through his new circumstances while “evolving as a pitcher”. With a fine change-up being his best pitch on most nights, Rodriguez’s owners are now wondering, evolving into what?

The 2007 2H was worrisome, but now the small-sample 2008 numbers and performance are scary, a 1.92 WHIP suggesting how fortunate Rodriguez is to be 7-for-8 in save opportunities. A 35% H% suggests that bad luck is a factor, but Rodriguez’ only other plus has been an ability to induce GBs more than 50% of the time - which hardly inspires confidence, given the sample size. The Bottom Line is that Rodriguez’ ankle pain and refined delivery are new variables that are currently wreaking havoc with his skills as we've known them, at least in the short-term. This uncharted territory suggests that you lower your 2008 expectations.


I clearly have concerns about this, and was watching it even before this article was posted. Cordero saved as many games as KRod last year, struck out more batters per 9 innings and walked 2 fewer batters per 9 innings -- AND he's healthy (at least right now). Again, time will tell how things work out, but I feel like the deal will improve my team.
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PostSubject: Re: Carolina Basement League Trade Number 2   Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:19 pm

I am in the Florida State Dormant League, but will give my two cents on this deal. When I thought it was Chris Young the pitcher it seemed real lopsided, but seeing its the other Chris Young I cant see this being a vetoable (I think I just made this word up) trade; though at first glance it does appear Red Monster comes out like a bandit.
The view on this trade will come down to personal preference of the players, which means its probably a legit trade that doesnt change the balance of the league and doesnt involve collusion.
I personally dont care for Chris Young the outfielder even though his power and speed is enticing. His average scares me to death. Im also not a Oliver Perez fan. Personally I consider both of these a wash simply for the fact I dont want them on my team. Its also hard to compare hitters to pitchers, though I would think you could get a better pitcher for Young, but if others in the league are staying away, then maybe not.
Milledge for Upton is in my view a flip of the coin. At the moment Upton looks better, and he does play for a better team; but I personally liked Milledge more at the start of the season. Your selling high on Upton, and could probably get someone better than Milledge, though thats not the fault of the guy giving up Milledge; though it is possible no one wants to pay a premium for Upton either. Both of these guys have been viewed in real recent seasons as top prospects and are both legit players to go 20-20 this year, if not better.
K-Rod for Cordero appears to favor K-Rod, but these are closers, which means nothing is guaranteed. Cordero could save just as many games as K-Rod even if K-Rod was healthy, its just the nature of closers. The rest of K-Rods numbers should be better, but the fact that he does have injury concerns means I would prefer to own Cordero.
In the end a trade that might lean towards Red Montser, but if we K-Rod goes down for the season, then suddenly its a great deal for the other guy.
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PostSubject: Re: Carolina Basement League Trade Number 2   Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:08 am

Well, i might as well pitch in with my two pesos worth.

First, I would not veto the trade, even not realizing that it was Chris Young the OF. Each manager must make their own decisions. I agree with much of the analysis offered here. I have always followed the Blitz-d rules for vetos.

Last year, I was in a TSN league where one manager bought four teams, then made lopsided trades to load one team. It was suspicious, but it was early in March, and didn't seem too odd. Until a manager who happened to be in another league with the same four managers noticed the same thing. He PMed me, and the other seven managers in our league and the other affected league, and we went to the site mangement with our concerns. They found, upon investigation, that all those teams were owned by one guy. He was banned, the leagues redrafted, and none of us vetoed any trades that season. I also finished 11th! What a Face

And a couple of years ago on TSN, there was a deadline deal that sent some big name players to the third place team from the sixth place team. And it ended up in a stink, with four votes against, and a protest. I voted for it (as did two other managers), and I maintain to this day that it was not collusion. Rather, I saw it as a lot of sour grapes, because the loudest voices against the trade were the two guys in first and second! cyclops They even had the balls to try and convince me it was collusion, and that I should change my vote. In the end, TSN reset everything, and I still ended up in eighth place, and the two whiners came in one-two.

I even had a trade stopped in my Yahoo fantasy hockey league this season because one whiny owner didn't like it. I still finished ahead of the butthead (I was sixth, he was dead last!).

So, no, my experiences with vetos aren't pretty.
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PostSubject: Re: Carolina Basement League Trade Number 2   Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:15 am

Okinawa Corals wrote:



I will cross my fingers and hope someone in my league is dumb and I can trade Jonathan Sanchez for Arod because I have excess pitching and I need a 3B...lmao

good luck all


That is part of the beauty of DnT fantasy games. Everyone sees things a little differently. I wouldn't trade A-Rod for a rookie arm, but there's always one guy out there who might.

Heck, I think I'm playing against some of them in one of my Yahoo leagues. affraid
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PostSubject: Re: Carolina Basement League Trade Number 2   Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:32 am

lol, hey DAnnino are we together on any of the Yahoo Leagues? I go by the same name almost everywhere...

good luck
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PostSubject: Re: Carolina Basement League Trade Number 2   Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:29 am

Okinawa Corals wrote:
lol, hey DAnnino are we together on any of the Yahoo Leagues? I go by the same name almost everywhere...

good luck

No. You know too much about baseball to be in any of my Yahoo Open leagues. afro

I do run a league on Yahoo for member from snopes.com the Urban Legend Resource website. Of the eleven other members, half know baseball well, the rest are just in it for the competetion.

But some of the players on ESPN, Fox, and TSN are almost as bad. Pretty much every trade in the AAAPCL gets approved within an hour. I made a trade in another league there (an open H2H where at least one owner hasn't made a move in a month), and so far, no one has voted on it! affraid
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PostSubject: Re: Carolina Basement League Trade Number 2   Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:18 am

THAT BECAUSE WE ARE THE BEST LEAGUE ON THE SITE

honestly DAnnino how insanely active is this league?...i cant believe how often guys check in and vote - yesterday we processed what? 3 trades? all in less than 5 hours....the league is amazing.....

BTW i would veto the Sanchez for ARod deal - there is a point where things get ridic....I have only vetoed two trades in my life....one was a team that got pissed and trade 3 top 20 players for nothing as a way of quitting....the other was this season actually - a team in my H2H league ( which is my first H2H and it is a horrible format) made a traderight after the draft...all the players he got were picked significantly higher than the ones he gave up- that was just too much....i understand that as a season goes on that the values of players changes, but right after the draft is different imo....anyway...................I am glad to see everyone discussing this stuff rationally and not flipping out...... What a Face
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PostSubject: Re: Carolina Basement League Trade Number 2   Sat May 09, 2009 12:43 am

my 2 cents...normally I'm not a big fan of vetoing any trades that come up in my leagues. But I did have a huge problem with one this year.
the trade itself was arod for hermida/swisher.
in itself it's a lopsided trade, but what set me off about it, was that the guy who traded arod is not even an active manager.
he has 3 guys active, who have been on the dl for weeks. It looks as though he drafted, then left his team.
he obviously checked his email, saw the trade offered and thought to himself, "what the hell, I don't care about that league, i'm also in last place, so Okay".
we argued and argued that the trade should be allowed to be voted on, but EFP said as long as there's no collusion, the trade stands.
4 mangers have quit the league because of it.
Common sense would say that if 4 guys feel that strongly that the trade creates an unfair advantage, and upsets the league integrity..then there must be a problem with it.
so yeah..rules are fine..but there definitely needs to be exceptions, as blindly following a silly written charter has cost a league its competitiveness, and probably EFL 4 good managers.
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